How do you know if a Social Story "worked"?

Social Stories are not a behavior change strategy. So how do we know if a Social Story "worked"?

In this episode, Team Social Stories discusses the tricky question of Social Story effectiveness. The goal of a Social  is never to get a child  to do something that an adult wants them to do—so what do we look for to determine if a Story was impactful? 

Listen in for insights into noticing subtle shifts in a young person's anxiety or sleep, how Stories can benefit teachers even more than a student, and why we need to challenge neurotypical assumptions and expectations if we're going to create neuro-affirming classrooms and homes. 

For context: Siobhan mentioned "Gray's Water Balloon Survey." This survey is part of the Social Stories training, and it asks participants to evaluate how likely they would be to toss a water balloon from a perch in a tree onto various passersby below. We explore the social considerations that participants make when deciding whether to toss the water ballon. No two participants have the same responses, reminding us that there is no one universal and correct way to be a social being in this world! 

In the next episode, part two of this conversation will explore what counts as "success" when sharing a Social Story. 

Join us for the Social Stories Symposium October 15 & 16, 2026!

And connect with Team Social Stories:

• Carol: https://carolgraysocialstories.com
• Siobhan: https://siobhantimmins.uk
• Aaron: https://www.aaronlanou.com

Transcript

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Intro

Siobhan 0:00

It's frustrating when you hear people talking like that about well, that that's what we need to do. We need to see him do that. We need to see that response. We need him to be able to to put up his hand every time in exactly that way, um in a particular neurotypical way as well.

Carol 0:24

You're listening to the Social Stories podcast with Team Social Stories. We're Carol Gray, Dr. S iobhan Timmons, and Aaron Lanou. In each episode, we explore authentic Social Stories, the philosophy, and the defining criteria, addressing frequently asked questions with case examples and lively discussion. Thank you for joining us as we learn together with respect, curiosity, and social humility at the heart of every conversation.

How do you know if a Social Story worked?

Aaron 0:57

I have a query for the group today. We know that Social Stories are not about changing someone's behavior. So how do you know if a Social Story actually worked? What counts as success with a Social Story? You know when they were.

Carol 1:16

Because there's just this huge domino um rally of positive outcomes, things you didn't expect.

Aaron 1:27

Isn't it also though related to that, like if your mindset is, well, the goal is to get them to sit and start wiggling. And that counts as worked, and anything short of that means didn't work. Right? Like it depends on what you're looking for, hoping to have happen, how you like imagine what the problem is.

Carol 1:52

Yeah. You know, the the first thing that came to my mind was it's all about uh meaning that a Social Story is our best bet at uh sharing information with someone in our care, and then at the same time ensuring that the information that we want to share is understood in the same way by the audience. That the meaning does not become altered in transit from our mind to the mind of the person in our care. It's it's the clearest, yeah, it's our best bet.

Siobhan 2:39

That we might just improve the social understanding of the individual, but that doesn't mean they will respond in a particular way.

unknown 2:50

No.

Siobhan 2:50

We've we've just shared information and that improved their understanding. Everything feels better, but maybe nothing is fixed in terms of performance, you know? Um and the better night sleep, the less picking at the nails, the anxiety level coming down, they are really good, strong indicators that something is improved, um, but not often measured. So I think that's important.

Aaron 3:18

Yeah, I also like messing with the idea that it's about um, well, I mean, this is part and parcel with the philosophy, and I think you all would agree, but like you you mentioned um, Siobhan, sharing social information, and I think that's obviously so critical, and that there is a transmission that you like you mentioned, Carol, but it's we also have to take the step back to say it's not just we have the right information in our heads because we're doing things accurately, and we've got to make sure that gets transmitted to another person so they understand what's right and you know the correct way to do things. That's not what's getting transmitted, right? So even I agree with both of what you said, and it's messier, muddier even than either of those things, right? Because it's what social information are we sharing? Well, if we didn't start from a place of social humility, then it's almost guaranteed that we're transmitting some social information that we have not problematized and dug into and you know examined enough to make sure that it's relevant and helpful and accurate information to be shared in the first place.

Carol 4:27

True. True. Getting that that topic right. You know, we've talked about those aha moments that we have when we're gathering information and it's like, oh, you know, so so I think I've you know hit the I'm gonna hit the nail on the head with this one. I I think I just discovered it's it takes us by surprise because uh for that one important moment we had a blank slate and we saw things exactly like they are, and it's like, oh, you know, now I know what to do, or now I know what the topic will be. I think it's also the reverse is true. I have seen uh in reviewing a Social Story with the audience where I can see they have the same sort of aha moment, and they go, oh, so that's what everybody's been responding to. I was working with a uh 10-year-old, 10-year-old boy, and his teacher was puzzled, as was I, whenever he worked in a small group, he sat with his back to the group. And of course, that's you know, going to make it a little awkward for the other students. They're sitting working on this small group activity, and he's sitting with his back to them, but still a part of the circle. And so I wrote a Social Story um describing how sometimes students decide to face a group when they're working with a group, and some of the advantages to that. Um and he took the story up to his teacher and he said, You have got to read this. There is really good information in here. Um and he went back and sat facing the group. And um maybe it was anxiety that caused him to turn his back to the group, or was it something else? I'm not sure I will ever know. But what was so interesting was what the teacher described to me, his emotional reaction to that story. He read it, he walked up and said, Wow, you know, this is there's great information in here. Uh and there was it she said it was relief.

Aaron 7:12

It's clarifying.

Carol 7:13

Yeah, right?

Aaron 7:15

Maybe anxiety, but maybe there is an element of uncertainty or confusion that got resolved. Yeah. To your point, Siobhan, that's that's the like the weight is lifted. Maybe he slept better that night or what whatever, was a little less less reluctant to come to school.

Siobhan 7:32

Yeah, maybe he just didn't know what was expected of him when he looked into the group, and it was frightening because he didn't know what was going to happen next. And you explained the purpose of looking forward, and that relieved all their anxieties, you know. Yeah, it's incredible, isn't it?

Carol 7:53

Others would be able to, you know, hear him. Or I I was in the third person. It was not, you know, sometimes children decide to face a group because you know, it makes it easier for others to hear them and to see their see their ideas, etc. I've had that back to the group response also uh twice with a a Christmas uh holiday program that the school puts on where every class goes up and they sing a holiday song. And I've had twice it's happened where one of my students would stand on the riser but with their back to the group. Uh and when you think about that, it definitely changes what you're going to see. Um, if you sit, if you stand with your back to the group, that could relieve a lot of anxiety. But then once you know the purpose for facing the group, apparently, uh then it's okay. Um because in both of those situations, uh you know, I really think the student turned around um and did the concert facing uh the audience. But it it's an interesting response. I've seen it three times once in working with a small group. Um and but what's important is the kind of information that we share and how we share it.

Aaron 9:33

Yeah. Because in in those cases, like it's more of a classic case of worked. It was an obvious sort of difference or something was happening in the classroom. We're on the stage facing a different way. The the goal was, I guess, a behavioral thing, right? To to turn around and face the group or face the same direction as the group. And in that case, you could say it worked because they turned around. I have an interesting related story that that I think highlights that it's not just about, well, we got them to do the thing, it's about now they understand the thing. That in one of my first grade classes years ago, um, one of my students uh so the way the desks were arranged, so you know, sometimes the students' chairs face the front of the room. And sometimes if you have a couple desks together, their chair faces like the wall. And they it take it it takes some effort to like turn 90 degrees to face the board, right? And so we had that kind of setup, and one of my students was um chair was oriented to face sort of the wall. Um, and we said, Okay, everyone, um, you know, we're getting ready for the lesson, turn your bodies or something general like that. And everyone except her turned and faced the board where me and my co-teacher were, and she turned her body and faced the back of the room. And I said her name and I was like, Oh, turn around. And she just kind of like looked like this, and and I was like, turn, turn around this way. And she just kind of like shrugged, she's like, Okay, and then she turned and faced us. And then it happened again, like I don't know if it was the next day or shortly after. And instead of saying, turn around, I said, um, we're gonna be looking at the board over here. And she was like, Oh, and she turned around, and after that she never faced the other way again. So it was not the goal is comply with my direction, face this way. Yes, I wanted her to get the information, but the the the about the lesson. But I think the difference was what I shared mattered to her. It wasn't a directive to comply, face this direction, not that direction. It was all the information you're gonna need is right here, or we're gonna be looking at something over here. And she's like, oh, well, I I need to know what that is then, so I should probably turn this way instead of to the back of the room.

Carol 11:48

What you're describing, Aaron, is you know, concepts guide our responses. And um once and it's right along the lines of, you know, I've always said rationale before request, and uh when we're and and the importance of teaching concepts uh so that certain responses seem more logical, but if you try to define and elicit the response, you still haven't uh given any focus or attention to the information that may make that response feel more logical and comfortable.

Siobhan 12:38

Oh, I agree.

Carol 12:41

You know, that's that's what uh that guy was saying when he took the story up to his teacher, all excited and said, wow, there is really good information in here. Uh, you know, it's kind of like, wow, thank you. You know. You know, now it makes sense.

Aaron 13:00

Can you write me a Social Story to get a kid to...?

Aaron 13:02

So maybe a related question for us all to think about is I feel like all of us have probably been asked multiple times, can you help me write a Social Story to get a kid to? Right. And again, the presumption there is the goal of the Social Story is to get the kid to do something or stop doing something, right? A behavior change thing. Like, I'm just kind of curious, what's your default response? Like, how do you, how do you, what do you say back to a person who says, Can you help me write a Social Story to get a kid to reframe it so that we know our starting point is not the goal of getting the kid to do the thing or to stop doing a thing?

Siobhan 13:43

I think I'd probably um very simply say that the the the role of a Social Story is to share information. So I need to find the information as to why your student is behaving in a in that particular way. What is it about their response that makes them more comfortable? Because that's you know the information that may need um uh augmenting. They may just be missing that bit of information. Um I think it's very it's it's a difficult question because quite often um people are sent uh requests for Social Stories. They come on a training and then they're sent requests for Social Stories and they're expected, you've been on that training, can you please sort me a Social Story about uh an eight-year-old who's spitting in the playground? And you know, I think that's a very common phenomenon. And quite often people do send a story that that worked for them. Uh and I I think it is a it's a it's a tricky one to answer, really. I don't know what what do you guys think? What do you say when someone says that?

Carol 14:58

Well, I sort of an additional question for us. Uh oh as a consultant, I would walk into a situation and your first contact is often the teacher. And some teachers, just like you said, Aaron, will say, Oh, I'm so glad you're here because I need you to get Peter to compare that though to uh the teacher who greets me at the door and says, Oh, if I could just spend one day as Samantha, I know I would be more effective as her teacher. I feel far more comfortable handing a Social Story to the teacher who wants to spend the day as that child. Uh in answer to the question, then, can you write a Social Story to help me get so-and-so too? My first in my mind was no. And that I would really want for you instead to write the story and especially to research the story and to follow the criteria so that you as a teacher who wants me to get this child to begins looking in general, understands the concept, that that isn't a good starting point, and it's not even a good ending point.

Aaron 16:35

Yeah. Like one I think we've talked about this before, but the, you know, like Eureka Aha moments like feel really good. When you've when you think you know something as the adult, you think you know what's going on, and you're just like, well, how come it's not working? How come it's not clicking? Uh there's like a futility to just like, you know, trying things and trying things to just get a kid to do something you want them to do and it not landing. And it actually feels better to be like, whoa, wait, let me do that thing that the teacher, Samantha's teacher, is saying, right? Let me take a step back and see if like I can understand this differently. Take the perspective of this young person, and to have this like, oh my God, I never in a million years would have thought that's what was going on, didn't notice that was going in, you know, that was this shining light was in the room, whatever the thing is that we make some discovery around, it actually feels a lot better. It's like more like, if you want to be selfish about it, it's like more rewarding as the adult to be like, oh my gosh, wow, I now know something I didn't know before. And with that, me now equipped with that knowledge or perspective, I feel like I can actually help this young person understand something, or I can offer something, or I can just change something myself in the room, or whatever it might be, that's gonna make things run smoother. And I I I think that's because I was I laughed at your response, Carol, that like if someone says, Hey, can you write me help me write a Social Story to get a kid to fill in a blank? And the answer is no, is like it's hilarious to me, and also probably would not land well with a teacher who's like, you know, frustrated and you know, one looking for some support. Um, but it's the right answer too. And I just I um I have this technique I try to ask teachers to use. This is a roundabout way, I'm I'm getting to my point, but I I have this technique I try to ask teachers to use, which is um find a way to say yes. So, as a teacher, if a kid's like, hey, uh, can I go to the bathroom? You're like, no, there's someone else in the bathroom. You haven't started your math problems, or like, hey, can I go sharpen my pencil? No, it's not time. Like you can't sharpen your pencils in the middle of a lesson. How many times have I told you that? Like, see if you can just respond with a yes, and then by qualifying what you mean or what can happen. So, like, hey, can I go to the bathroom? Yes, as soon as you finish two of those problems, it's all yours. Or like, hey, can I sharpen my pencil? Yes, as soon as the lesson's done, I got three minutes. And so, so I'm I'm wondering if I can reframe your response, Carol. I know it was tongue in cheek, but like, hey, can you help me write a Social Story to help a kid to fill in a blank? Yes, I can help you write a Social Story as long as our starting point is we're gonna be taking a step back and gathering information. Like, if we could like take the request and get it on our path that we envision, um, without agreeing to that presumption that like this is about changing the kid's behavior.

Carol 19:33

Right, right. You know what was so interesting. Every single one of your yes responses connected to the future, every single one of your no response examples that you gave described the current situation without any hope of future. I was listening to them and I thought, okay, you're stuck in the middle, you're still in the middle, you're stuck in you're you're just feeding back the current situation. Every one of your yes responses was, yes, that will be available to you uh, you know, at the top of the hour. Yes, that will be available to you there. I we have a tendency to think in the present tense, especially if um our anxiety is raised, we have a tendency not to think, you know, this will come to a close and it's going to be more comfortable in a few minutes, etc. But I I think there's an important concept for writing Social Stories that where we talk about connecting past and especially the present to the future. Yes responses. When we can give a yes response, we're usually saying yes in a few minutes. No responses, uh we're kind of stuck where the child is stuck.

Challenging neurotypical expectations

Siobhan 21:02

Do you think that um wanting to see an instant change in the present or very close to the present is like that drive behind we some research projects where they have uh you know the tasks they want completed that the Joe will uh complete this by such and such a date on his own independently. Um and it's why we we sometimes see research projects not having a favorable outcome because the focus has been on exactly that on someone achieving a concrete, immediate response that everyone can see. And I think it's frustrating when you hear people talking like that about well, that that's what we need to do. We need to see him do that, we need to see that response. response, we need him to be able to to put up his hand every time in exactly that way, um, in a particular neurotypical way as well. Um because I I I was thinking of um, you know, when we when we do the training, we sometimes do the water balloon survey. And the water balloon survey tells us all, um you know, we don't all respond identically with the same information. We just don't. Um and therefore sometimes our response is expecting a certain response. So for example, if a child could actually speak up and perform or raise a question but still be facing outside of the group because that's comfortable for them, would that be okay? That would be his way of being included in that group. I bet you all the other kids would quite quickly adapt to it. They'd be fine. If he didn't respond to that information about looking into the group in order to get that information. So sometimes we don't we we're sharing information just to improve that understanding without an expectation that that person, unless it's something obviously unsafe or that's really ineffective for what they want to achieve, that's different. But um we do have a tendency to uh try and uh steer somebody into a very neurotypical response don't you know as as people, as the universe um and that's a great shame.

Carol 23:37

You're so right uh that that young man who was sitting with his back to the group he could very well have decided you know I think I will listen and I will you know since they since they have good ideas and everybody has good ideas and that's what this is about. It's about I could pass them a note. I could there's a lot of different ways that um you can get there from here.

Siobhan 24:07

Yeah I can remember a student putting their head on the desk um and look they looked for all purposes as though they were asleep. And um I was asked to write a Social Story about sitting up to answer answer the questions, look at the teacher. It was a slightly different sort of um context and no one had actually asked him what was going on. What did he know? He could tell you absolutely everything that the teacher had said but no one had bothered to check the assumption had always been he's checked out he's not listening he's noncompliant to the classroom etiquette and therefore he can't be paying attention but he was in his own way because to look provided too much information. In order to listen he had to shut that sensory pathway off. In fact the the Social Story was much more for the teacher than for the child because it's okay in in certain circumstances for him to do that. But perhaps to look at the floor, to look at a neutral um piece of information and speak, if that's the way that's comfortable for him and he's included you know that that's great. Now later on um he'll need information about the workplace and interviews and things where people have um where he may be ineffective in achieving his goals if um to some extent he doesn't give some information back that he's listening. But there's autistic ways to do that, isn't it? That's okay to do it in a different way.

Aaron 25:48

And yeah I just that's I think that's very powerful too because it um like we're a lot of what we're talking about is this this assumption that we know what what works or success looks like is this thing head up off the table, you know, the kid raising his hand in class or whatever. We like the the the goal is very seems clear to the adult. And I think a lot of that if we're talking about a classroom context a lot of that does come from I think what you described Carol of like anxiety stress about like this something feels off and just for me to feel successful and to feel like our my classroom is running more smoothly kids sitting up is just like of course that's what you're supposed to do. Kids facing the same direction of course that's what you're supposed to do. That's little signals to me that I know I'm doing my job right or think this thing is going well. And it's a it's teaching is hard. And so there anything that feels off or repeatedly off is understandable for an old adult to be like I I would like him to do what all the other kids are doing because that's what we're all supposed to be doing. And it does take a little bit of um a leap of faith some like knowledge I think for the for the part of the adult to recognize like actually this could look multiple ways and like we can get to this kid participating and listening and remembering and connecting and contributing all the things you ultimately want, we can get there through it on a different path. It might look a little different for this person.

Siobhan 27:13

I can remember um writing a story teaching a student how to glance um because they were in trouble because they were not looking and the teacher doesn't know I'm listening when I'm not looking and and the young man did feel you know he knew he was listening. He didn't understand that there was any requirement to let the teacher know he was listening. So the Social Story was really about what the teacher needs to know the children are listening so it helps if and children sometimes look at the teacher to let them know. But there was also part of that story was acknowledging that for some children looking at at the face may be uncomfortable and therefore glancing is a technique that people who find that uncomfortable sometimes find useful. We taught him to glance to look away and just glance from time to time and that way the teacher knew he was okay and he was on board but his comfort was acknowledged you know um that he was that was difficult for him that that's okay but we're not going to push you to do that we're gonna accept whatever's comfortable for you to get engaged um and be able to learn so yeah I was thinking I had a lucky mental image of a little boy with his back to the group when he's asked a question you know Andrew are you listening and he just put his thumb down I'm listening I'm on board and I'll answer this way you know it's possible it is possible it's not I perhaps ideal from the teaching point of view but it's it's possible um yeah and it does take some like flexibility and openness on a part of the teachers.

Aaron 29:03

It must be very hard for the yeah but I think to do the work of teaching period well but also inclusive teaching teaching in a setting where autistic students are going to be successful I think it like requires that level of flexibility and a little bit of openness and like that the social humility that is at the core of all the stuff we we talk about. I've just seen a lot of classrooms where like even strong, relatively strong teachers who've had success in the past who have their routines and structures down who you know teach in a way that works for very many kids they have some new students in their classroom and it's not a match anymore for how this teacher's style and how this young person operates. And that makes a teacher feel like it's got to be the kid because I've been doing this for 14 years and I have tons of success and my test scores are great and you know kids are happy now I have a kid and it's not working. It's got to be the kid not me like that's an under I think it's an understandable response to have but the harder reality is well it is you not like you're doing anything wrong or you're a bad teacher but like the fact that the kid isn't successful in this room is related to you and your practices and like what it might take is to try something a little different, be a little open to things looking different and understanding how this person operates that's a little different that's going to allow you to feel better about you doing your job, the young person to like learn and be successful and feel comfortable in your classroom. And that that can be a hard shift for people to make but I think that's like we've been talking about like that the aha's and the the learnings that you make as a as an adult are like interesting and exciting, I think, more than just you know being in a sort of run-of-the-mill routine year after year. And that's also how we learn about not just teaching and kids but how we learn about humans and that how all the very many ways that we're can be different from one another in ways that are like interesting and exciting and just straight up true too.

Outro

Aaron 31:18

That does it for the first part of our discussion of how we know if a Social Story worked. In our next episode we'll continue the conversation and explore what counts as success when sharing a Social Story with an Audience. Thanks for listening to the Social Stories Podcast. If you're writing Social Stories and something in this episode resonated with you, we'd love to hear about it. From Team Social Stories Carol, Siobhan and Aaron, until next time